Western Folklife Center

Click here to return to the homepage of Western Folklife Center

« Spiral Concho Comments | Main | Engraving Class of 2007 »

Tree Makers Conflab of 2007

Tree-makers Conflab of 07

This was a rather impromptu gathering of tree makers whom all share one vision, and that is a more universal language or lexicon amongst we saddle makers as well as an easier to understand fitting program.
It goes without saying that all of us have an opinion, and sometimes a rather strong opinion at that when it comes to fitting and the building of the saddle trees that we take so much pride in. But should our pride take precedence over common sense and a unique approach, cannot answer for you, but I am quite willing to lay mine aside for a day and that is just what we done for 3 days matter of fact.
treemakers-07.JPG
Jeremiah Watt, Hank Statham in the Stetson, Dennis Lane, and David Morris on far right side.

Now to say that we four as seen in the picture were the only ones involved would be dishonest. In total I think most of the handmade tree makers in USA had a chance to hear this same presentation that I did from my Australian friend Dennis Lane. Dennis, a saddle maker and a tree maker from Quirindi NSW, along with saddle maker and tree maker David Morris also from down under along with the wild cow catcher and Aussie saddler Hank Statham shown here with a Stetson.
Dennis Lane is a long time saddle maker of the Aussie style and added the making of his own saddle trees after taking a class from Dale Harwood. Dale came to Australia some 15 years ago said David, and taught a class to 8 of us in total, it was a rugged affair at best but we learned plenty in the time we had. I have not looked back sine, just kept moving ahead with what I have been doing with my saddle trees. David Morris on the other hand began his career as a Mechanical Engineer, but his love for leather work took him in other directions after he attained his Engineering degree. David left Australia for a nearly two year stint at Cordwainer’s College in England. His time there was spent on the English style saddles of course, the attachment to England was short lived and so was his fascination with the English styles of saddle. I came home to Australia and promptly went to work on learning leather carving and added trees to my routine as well. Its saddle trees that brought Dennis and I together, and we have worked together on several projects now making it a mutually beneficial relationship. And Hank, well he was along by friendship and to keep David and Dennis from taking life and horse measuring to serious. Life has to be fun, and if yours ain’t I would say “ya should’a met ol Hank mate”. My god his stories of cowboying back when were so good, Hank is 68 if I can say that, and he has sure cowboyed around in Australia. Anyways, if you weren’t smilling before you met him, you would be after. Hank your welcome at my table anytime, no invite needed round here.
Dennis and his cohorts had made a 35 day grand sashay around the western USA, and in that time had made stops at as many saddle shops and tree makers as they could. During this trip they also took in the Sheridan Leather Show, at which Dennis done a short horse fitting demonstration as well. I will refrain from mentioning the names of other tree makers for instance whom had Dennis stop in, I don’t have their permission to make mention of it here nor their own opinion of the Lane System.
westernaussietreeA.JPG
Some night when ya can't sleep head out and try making this beast.

The way that I worked into it was quite simple, I need plenty of help with the trees and I am the last cowboy coffee pot before the Aussies hit the LA Airport on their way home.
Truthfully, Dennis and I speak several times a year at great length about all things saddle and tree related. Dennis has always been one for uniformity and classification with what and how he approaches the saddle tree, but trying to get the same from a group of single minded tree makers may be another story indeed. First problem, at least as I see it, what the heck are we doing having to listen to some Aussie about how to fit a WESTERN saddle tree. Like many things we find in this world, the whole saddle tree and fit issue did not start with those of us out west, and Dennis just happens to think outside of the box when it comes to fitting horses.
The approach Dennis and David take on this tag team fitting tour is quite non-confrontational, and in doing it in that matter it makes the system easy to hear. I have been fitting, and advocating the fitting of horses for some 12 years now, but have had to say that following Dennis’s approach has merit that I will surely give a try. The Lane System, if I can call it that without attaching a label to it, is quite simply a group pf predetermined contour cards that match horses withers, mid section and loin, in addition there are a group of bar rock templates which Dennis will send out to any who ask. Taking this approach is a customer winning format, because it first of all puts them into the project as Dennis says, in that they actually place the cards on their own horses and send the results to you to record and work from. One huge matter of contention, is that it does not try to give any actual degree indication, this is a matter of “intelligent design or polite omission”, since the degree thing can be the cause of a knife fight if not dealt with carefully.
sideaussietreeC.JPG
This was such a pretty tree in person, great job Dennis
Anyways, we simply stand our horse/horses on level ground, and find that lowest point of curve in the horses back which by magic is usually his 14th vertebrae. We begin placing cards over him at this lowest point until we find one that fits him cleanly and record that number designation. From that point we move 8 inches towards his wither and do the same with the cards and recording the proper designation, and once again we work backwards of the lowest point along the spine at 8 inches and find the best fitting card and record the numerical designation on the card. Yes, as simple as that, and we have a total of 3 recordings of the spine and rib cage area on your horse where the saddle tree is expected to fit. Next we take the longer rock patterns that Dennis sends out, and lay these on the rib cage approx 3.5 inches below the center of spine, which approximates the center of the bar as it lays on a horse, each rock template has a witness mark that we use to line up with the 14th vertebrae and then we check to see which rock contour fits the horse best. Once again we record all of that and send that off to the saddle maker if he works with a tree maker using the Lane System, and from that the tree maker knows exactly what angles he has to work with in his own tree shop to meet the profiles of horses sent in.
frontaussietreeB.JPG
Front end of that traditional Aussie Stock Saddle

The real beauty is that Dennis is not telling us what angle we have to use, we can use what ever angle suits our approach the best, but we are fitting towards a commonly understood profile in the end, and in that we will attain some uniformity amongst all who give the Lane System a try.
I for one will begin next week with the use of the cards and taking readings by that method in order to begin building a catalog of horses with the cards. Once I have enough horses carded, I can then begin to fine tune the angles I use so that I can match easily the average of the card readings taken. Having this one step added into my fitting program gives me more accurate information from my customers now, and that will be a boon for me as I see it. SO for now at least, I am a convert until I find a flaw with it that I currently do not see.
The tree makers conflab proved to be very interesting for me, as it gave me a better look at how two guys from 3000 miles from the western saddle tree makers of the world, approach things just a little differently. Their thinking outside the proverbial box just may prove to be the wave of the future. While we sat and visited about all things saddle and tree related, we also talked about how to make this a bi-annual event in which more folks could attend and maybe a workshop could be organized. If you have thoughts, by all means let me know and I will pass it on to Dennis.
In case you are wondering about the tree pic’s I am posting here, well they look plum weird to us in USA but there completely normal for an Aussie. The tree with the little ears is Dennis version of a Western Australian Stock saddle, it combines all the attributes of a normal Stockman’s Saddle and pairs them up with normal western saddle tree bars. Those funny looking little ears, will act as do our Buckrolls on our Wade’s etc, except Dennis happens to form his in wood and cover them with leather afterwards. Now the other real slick skeleton looking saddle tree, that will be used for a very traditional Stockman’s Saddle. Both Dennis and David, and Hank for that matter will attest to this sort of version being a huge improvement over the cheesecloth covered English tree things used in the past. To begin with you will see that this one from Dennis is covered in a beautifully done rawhide cover, the bars are a little wider and do not flex like the English counterpart.
I will include Dennis Lanes email address so that you can contact him directly with ideas and maybe you want a set of horse cards , contact Dennis at shmaa@aapt.net.au . I will talk to Dennis in a few days and see if it is alright for me to do a walk thru photo shoot of the use of the cards, and if so, I will post it here.

Good Night and God Bless

Comments

Very interesting. What if you ride a wide selection of horses, though? Would you card several of them and then take a sort of average? I know one saddle will never fit all horses perfectly, and I always thought that the development of the degrees (mostly 90 & 93) was a way of finding a general fit for most shapes and sizes.

Of course there will always be the odd ball horse. I once had a horse that had it's own saddle. It took about 10 tries to find a saddle that would fit him. When I sold the horse the saddle went too, as it fit him and no one else.

Mostly it seems that a saddle can fit a bunch of horses of the same general shape, and getting too specific might be a hinderance to someone with several rides. If you are building A saddle for A horse it is a grand luxury to have a custom saddle for the horse. Mostly I think people want a custom saddle for themselves that will work on several horses.

Maybe the cards should be two sided, one for the horse's back and one for the rider's seat. I am only half joking here. I have ridden saddles that were too wide, and the problem started with the tree, not just the ground seat. Just a thought.

If you set up one of those saddle fit clinics, sign me up. I don't have current aspirations to build trees, but I would love to learn more about fit.

As usual, another great blog,
Judy

I hope I can reply in this manner Judy, but the question you pose is a good one and I was reminded of it by my constant Blog companion Mike. Thanks Mike.
I would start by saying that the average you ask about is not one I feel applies across the spectrum, but more an average according to a discipline of horsemanship in which you are invoilved. The ranch horses I have had the chance to be around, and see working tend to on the skinny/fit side. The horses I get around that are involved in the performance classes such as Riening or Stock Horse, well they are fit/fat. BUT the horses used for a purely leisure riding scenario tend to be fat/unfit. So no application of an "average" will work.

Next we get to the most crucial aspect of the horse, and that is his conformation. On the ranch and depending on the region you ask about, horses tend to be of the Quarter variety, with decent conformation becasue it is a known fact that we need to have some place to put the saddle. In the performance show ring, again we are dealing with the best end of the Quarter horses, they are a little fatter if I can say that so that they show well appearance wise. More importantly, these trainers today have made a science of picking preospects with the traits to take them to the pay window, and conformation is a top priority.

When we get to the leisure rider, the breeds and crossbreeds are all over the map, they may own a 700 pound Arab, and a salvaged Percheron as well. The traits we are asked to engage with our tree are from the shoulder and neck of a horse which by design is best with a collar around his neck, all the way down to a trim fit Tevis Cup candidate. God himself could not fit the spectrum that some folks think we can with a handmade tree.
I must admit that even I am a little tired of the over used "Proper Angle", and the matter of fact way some folks now are trying to split angles into half degrees of accuracy for the suposed perfect fit. The longer I make trees, the more I realize that we need to allow some ROOM for the horse..............a little like we do with our shoes. Then you have each individual maker who has his own idea of what angles of attachment he wants to use when he builds his tree his way, and it all gets very complex in a hurry.
There is a need in my opinion to go to the extent of taking some measure ments, if nothing else it will give each of us a better understaning of conformation at least of the back. And with that alone, we will make a better judgement of horses we are asked to look at for an intended saddle sale. I myself take a series of readings down a horses back length. You can read more details of this if you go to my web site at www.ranch2arena.com. I recently had a friend Dennis Lane here, and he feels the whole process of sharing numb ers has become sort of carried away and no longer makes any real sense. So he has gone to the Lane Card System, which takes a series of average conformation types and melds them inot a given card set. Match the horse to the best/closest card, and record this and send it to the saddler of choice. Then it is up to the saddler to meet the conformation spoecs and use whatever angles he chooses to make it all come together. It is hard to explain in words here, but we could have a 10-15 degree difference from one maker to another and still end up fitting the same horse very well.
In the end, and within my own circle of clients, the angle I see most often leave the shop is now what we call a 93 degree. Thenm we go to a 96 degree for more of the performance horses. The typical ranch horse, well most of them can get along quite well in the 90 degree tree.
I hope that lends some help to the question asked her by Judy
Jeremiah

What are your thoughts on Judy's comments regarding an average fit? I have thought about this issue because it kind of raises a few good questions on what the card system provides. I sort of see it like this...

Observation 1... Custom saddle making is a pretty small niche market and the "custom" part of it is what brings the folks willing to pay. From a marketing standpoint I can see how offering a saddle custom fitted to the rider's favorite mount would be a pretty good way of drawing more of that "custom" client in. Not bad, maybe a little impracticate if you ride a string, but you're probably not going to find just one average saddle to fit them all anyway. Another aspect here is that folks love their horses nowadays and are generally pretty huge fans if they have a good one. Horses last longer on average than they used to and the good ones (if they have an occupation) cost a fortune.

Observation 2... How well has the horse's back been mapped & mapped in motion? Probably pretty well but bar design probably hasn't changed much. I can see, from a treebuilder's perspective, the usefullness and perhap eye opening applicability of a system that maps the horses back. Even better, one that maps many horse's backs quickly and accurately with the same basepoints as reference. Perhaps this could help tweek the "average" shap to a bar and define a better average for our equine friends?

Anyway, I did a little mapping myself a while back and boy was the shape suprising when it is taken out of reference to the rest of the horse. I kind of new this as I have done some sculpture in the past but what a dramatic "egg on it's side" shape the horse's torso is. There is a great book out there called " An Atlas of Animal Anatomy for Artists". These are very old , very detailed plates that show a wide variety of animals, beautifully illustrated at all angles. A great reference for a better understanding of what is under the skin. Enough for now... Mike

Post a comment

The opinions expressed in the Western Folklife Center's Deep West online journals are those of the online journal participants and not the Western Folklife Center. The Western Folklife Center does not moderate these journals and as such does not guarantee the veracity, reliability or completeness of any information provided in the journals or in any hyperlink appearing within them.