Jeremiah Watt

I hope you will be updating this entry all along the way to a finished saddle.

I am curious what the "cost" was to the rider? I understand the cost to the longevity of the saddle (stirrup leathers, and tree if the rivets strip out).

I am also curious about the notch that the forward most edge of the bar sits into on the tree. Does this protect the bar (and really the rivets) from torque if the rider's feet were to be flung forward hard, say by a bucking colt? Or does it just give stability to the bar and somewhat limit the movement of the rider's feet?

And lastly: does the angle that you set the bar into the tree change for each rider, or is there enough freedom of movement created to allow for a certain "standarization" of bar placement?

I am VERY new to saddle making, so I hope my questions aren't too rediculous.

Judy

Enjoyed the cycling blogg, my favorite sport!

Hi Jeremiah -

Glad to see you back at work..
First of all - I'm really honored to be the winner of the pie-contest... Hope you have had time to "taste" the pie I send ..?

So - to the saddle business.
Sure like your idea of the stirrup bar. You're right the idea isn't all that new.. and yeah, it never really caught on. Thinking about it, a little odd actually.... To the best of my knowledge, ALL "english" saddles produced nowadays are made with stirrups hangers/bars - no matter whether it's a Dressage or a Jump saddle. So I figure the idea theoretically should work on a western saddle too. Maybe you're the one to prove it.
Hope you will keep us all posted on your blog here..?

Thanks

All the best

Cheers - Per Kronvold (Denmark)

Glad you're home safe JW. And I'm REAL glad I wasn't the one dodgin' traffic and pedalin' all those miles.

Great shots of what looks like a heck of a wood shop...you're not going into the cabinetmaking business anytime soon, are ya?

Also, in closing, thanks for using the word "cajones." I had a bet with a friend of mine that you'd use that word before the year was up. I'm a dollar richer, and much obliged.

God Bless ya! You've got grit.

Bruce Gibson

Jeremiah,
I probably don't have much to offer, but here it goes. Seems that the idea is to use existing hardware to make it a cost effective option without driving yourself into the red with new hardware tooling costs. Since not a lot of folks ask for it, I can see that. I hate the fact that you have to set weight limits on the customer to make it last, but given the hardware available it does seem the only option. I wouldn't expect a lot of folks to own up to their actual weight. Also, how did you determine the weight limit. Probably from just having built a bunch... experience.
One thought I had (maybe just inexperience) is why not eliminate the leather going over the stirrup bar all together. Is there a way to rivet the two sides of the two leathers together on a piece of hardware where they cross the bar but instead of a bar, use a slotted hanger (maybe a keyhole style).
Adjustability... Conventional approach won't work, but the hardware (blevins) might. Of course, I realize right off that the problem is the fender. The top edge would be fixed in its location from the tree. That's kinda nice as a builder because the rider isn't going to be able to inadvertantly run that fender top too close to the tree and create a nasty lump under the seat, then blame the maker. You won't be able to adjust for a range that would fit little Timmy to a tall rider, just by cheating the fender top closer to the tree for that shorter legged rider either. Without getting too far out though, you just have to build a saddle that fits the intended rider within a certain range of adjustability... That seems like the whole intent of a custom saddle anyway. Build one that fits a particular rider but a variety of horses, not the other way around.
One last note as I draw a mental image of the hardware, is that the plate with the keyhole that attaches to the bars could be pretty low profile and wouldn't need much relief behind it, so it would cut back on the amount of bar material you would have to hog out. I would imagine that the plate would be recessed into the tree deep enough to allow the matching piece of hardware with a button capped post (and both sides of the leathers riveted to that piece, maybe one leather on each side)to lay flush under the seat cover and the rider's legs. The plate could actually be much larger and the additional bearing surface could strengthen that area of the tree that has been weaken from material removal. At least that way you wouldn't have to limit the rider's weight and they would get a pretty darn free swinging stirrup as it hinges on a single pivot point. Alright, rip me up....

Hi Jeremiah,

Season greetings from west coast Canada. I sure did enjoy your biking blog... I used to road ride alot about 20 some odd years ago; watching you made me want to dust off my road bike until I saw those darn tubulars on it all cracked and weathered so I put it away again

I'm not sure what to think about the hole hanger idea... sounds like you've addressed the major problem of the stirrup leathers wearing too quickly because of the tight fold over the the hanger by using a more rounded type of hardware and limiting the weight of the rider. I suppose what would concern me when I look at the photos you posted is the angle the hardware is set on. I do alot of "eyeing" instead of measuring, but when I look at that hardware and imagine the stirrup leather going over it and the riders leg pushing down on the stirrup, all I see is more wear on the back edge of the leather which is to say less wear on the leading edge (closest to the fork). The reason I see this is because I don't see an even pull on the entire 3"s of the stirrup leather; seems to me there is less pressure on the front of the leather than the back. The only other way I have to explain my thoughts is to imagine if you installed a flatplate riggin incorrectly in two different fashions. The first way, the rigging plate is tilted forward so that when you pull the latigo straight down, it is putting more tension on the leading edge of the leather than the back edge. The second way is if the plate is tilted backward... now the there is more tension on the back edge of the leather than the leading edge when you pull the latigo straight down.

When I look at that hanger, my eye sees the same scenario as the flat plate that is tilted forward but it's hard to say where the wear would be. Depending on the rider the wear could be on the back edge of the leather for someone who rides with their feet straigh out in and Aussie fashion. It could be on the front edge for someone who rides with their weight bearing straight down. Or the wear may be even if the rider catches the same angle as the hanger. Any of that make sense to you?

I suppose if the hanger is on the same angle as the top edge of the bar would be for a regular stirrup groove, it shouldn't make a difference... as I said before, that is just what my eye tells me.

Either way, be curious to know the outcome of this whole experiment as I've had people ask me about those Hamley hangers in the past and why you don't see them anymore.

Darc

What kind of tree
gives close contact,
sits the person waay down in the seat
and does not spread the legs too far apart
and has a 5-6" gullet?
I sat in a reining saddle (Bob Loomis Saddlesmith from Action co.) that gave me that kind of feel and contact and sat my back up straight (healing from a broken back, so there was no strain) where I felt I was sitting on my seat bones, not using my feet to support my weight.

I like the idea of stirrup bars myself. I ride a McClellan, and as you know, the hanging bars are rather thin in diameter and the leathers are 1 1/2 wide. I am looking at building a saddle myself and want to incorperate a couple of unusual features. One feature is an English style bar, I like the idea of my leathers coming loose in the event of a bad wreck. I am looking at using a 2" english leather. As far as angle, I plan it being nearly level, why? when I have the most weight in the sturrip is when standing in the sturrips. Makes sense to me, but open to suggestions. Have a great year all

Hello Jeremiah,

I am finding your "stirrup leather bar hanger" experiment interesting, but am unconvinced that it will save wear and tear on the stirrup leathers. As one gentleman already pointed out, the old McClellan saddles had a somewhat similar piece of hardware (albeit not attached to the tree in the same manner)to hang its stirrup leathers from. My husband and I saw quite a few of these come in for repair after having been ridden pretty hard by endurance riders (i.e. Tevis cup, etc...length rides). There was a great deal of wear and tear on the stirrup leathers where they bend over the hardware as well as actual wear of the metal hardware itself (taking into account it was SB hardware). The hardware itself had an angle built into it already, so they were installed at approximately a perpendicular angle to the tree bars, but the leathers were still wearing out at the forward and back edges. Bear with me, but... I guess I am not understanding how you feel that the design might increase the longevity of the stirrup leathers? Also, if installation of the hardware is going to weaken the bars of the tree, why would you want them? I know this sounds skepticle, but my mode of learning is through asking alot of questions and weighing the pros and cons. My husband custom built saddles and did a great deal of repair for about fifty years, so we were privy to seeing numerous designs and the resulting wear from extensive to moderate use. Also, wouldn't the hardware cause considerable bulk under the seat jockies or are you building up your ground seat in such a way as to increase the height over the hardware and thus make it blend better? Sorry for my ramble...I have a habit of throwing my thoughts around. I think the stirrup leather hanger design that the saddle maker out of Florida had makes more sense. I am curious to see one up close to check out how he designed the pivot in the sheet metal. Did he ever say whether or not they had any problems with the pivot plate rivets shearing or the whole pivot seizing up due to dirt particles? Your site information is interesting and thanks for letting me bend your ear for a moment. Take care!

Sincerely,
Jay Johnson

Your article is very informative and helped me further.

Thanks, David

Hi Jeremiah
I am going to attempt to build my first saddle and have been looking into purchasing a tree. I want to build on a wade tree, my question is do you sell just the tree and if so could you provide your pricing.

Thanks
Terry